Input needed

Okay I've been planing a hippo tang since june, and now it's sitting at the fish store waiting for me to pick up. I asked the owner who has a very good rep if he would hold the hippo for a week or 2 so the store to give it a chance to recover from transport. He agreed. Now that the fish is there like expected it has a touch of ich, and he no longer is willing to hold the fish at the store. I expected there would be some ich because it's a tang, so I do want the fish. I'm just not comfortable moving it less than a week after it arrived at it's current location. I feel the tang would stand a much better chance of beating the bug if it had a rest period. Any in put would help a great deal. I do have a 20 long he could live in for a couple of weeks. The tang is very small under 2", and the 20gal is currently unoccupied. I was thinking of using the 20 to treat w/ hippo senility?

I wouldn't buy it. That's how I lost all the hippo's I've tried. It's one tang I've never been able to keep.

hypo salinity really isn't good for it. The best would be to keep it 80F or a little higher. That shortens the lift cycle. Pick a good treatment too, if you decide to get it.

The thing is, I can't believe he's wanting to sell you a fish with ich. How and why would he do that? Most fish stores have a lower salinity than what we keep and also medicate their fish tanks.

My advice is to stay away from it. I have a yellow and lavender tang that's never had ich. It's not something to expect.

Thank you for the quick response. I do want the Tang, just don't want to see it die or waste my $$. He originally was going to hold the fish for about 2 weeks to avoid stressing it. A frein of mine who owns the other store out here, when I told him about this, says he known what dealer the fish came from before it got to the store, and he used to buy from said whole seller. Problem is 50% of the fish he got from that whole seller died. So.............

there's your answer. stay away from it. There are healthy ones out there. It just takes some looking.

Originally Posted by rgrking

I wouldn't buy it. That's how I lost all the hippo's I've tried. It's one tang I've never been able to keep.

hypo salinity really isn't good for it. The best would be to keep it 80F or a little higher. That shortens the lift cycle. Pick a good treatment too, if you decide to get it.

The thing is, I can't believe he's wanting to sell you a fish with ich. How and why would he do that? Most fish stores have a lower salinity than what we keep and also medicate their fish tanks.

My advice is to stay away from it. I have a yellow and lavender tang that's never had ich. It's not something to expect.

Stay away from buying a sick fish. It's just a nightmare, and usually ends up being a waste of money.

And yeah, why is this owner still willing to sell you a sick fish??? That doesn't make much sense to me...

Thanks guys, I think I want a Hippo so bad it's clouding my judgment a little.

On a better note I haven't been on a lot lately and have new corals to post pics of.

Originally Posted by rgrking

hypo salinity really isn't good for it. The best would be to keep it 80F or a little higher. That shortens the lift cycle. Pick a good treatment too, if you decide to get it.

Glen, I'm curious. Is there some new research into hypo that leads you to this conclusion?

Hypo is still my method of choice for dealing with ich (all my fish go through it and I haven't lost one yet).

absolutely. Let me find it

ok there' several. Here's one to start with

Treatment of Cryptocaryon irritans in Aquaria
By: Dr. Harry W. Dickerson
Dr. Harry W. Dickerson, B.V.Sc. Ph.D., is Associate Professor at the University of Georgia College of Veterinary Medicine, Athens, Georgia.
Cryptocaryon irritans (white spot disease) is a common ciliated protozoan parasite that can be inadvertently introduced into marine aquaria through infected fish or contaminated inorganic material. Most marine fish are susceptible to infection, visible as white spots on the skin, and will succumb to infection unless the parasites are aggressively treated.

Life Cycle of Cryptocaryon Irritans (Diagram by Becci Velasquez)

Survival of the aquarium population requires the elimination of virtually all parasites, and treatments will not work unless carried through to completion. When treatments are applied with an understanding of the parasite's life cycle, the chances of success increase significantly.
Life Cycle
The life cycle of Cryptocaryon is relatively simple. Cryptocaryon is an obligate parasite, one that cannot survive without a period of growth on a fish. It spends five to seven days (at 24 to 27°C) feeding and growing in the skin and gills. The parasite at this stage is called a trophont, and ranges from 60 to 370 microns in size. When the parasite reaches maturity it leaves the fish and enters the water as a large single cell called a tomont. The parasite swims for 12 to 18 hours until a sticky, opaque cyst wall is secreted which allows it to attach to substrates such as rock, coral, or glass.
These cysts measure from 200 to 400 microns in diameter and can sometimes be seen on surfaces inside the aquarium. The cells divide within each cyst to produce up to 200 daughter parasites called tomites. This multiplication process takes anywhere from 3 to 28 days (Colorni 1985). The tomites are much smaller (25 to 60 microns) than the original cell because they result from its cell division. They produce cilia which allow them to bore through the cyst wall and emerge into the water. These free-swimming cells are the infective form of the parasite called theronts. They are very small and not easily seen by the naked eye at this stage, and survive for only a few hours unless they find a host. When the theronts encounter a fish, they burrow into skin and gill tissue where they begin to grow, thus completing the life cycle.
The metabolic activity of Cryptocaryon is affected by the ambient temperature of the water. The warmer the water, the faster the parasite grows, thus speeding up all stages of the life cycle.
Treatment
The objective of treatment is to break the cycle of infection, and treatment must be started as soon as parasites are detected. Heavily infected fish will often die from severe gill damage despite treatment. Cryptocaryon is inaccessible inside the skin and gills, becoming vulnerable to treatment only after it leaves the fish. The parasite is difficult to treat because its rate of development is extremely variable, even in the same population. This means that when you treat the aquarium some parasites will inevitably remain on the fish and survive.
The key to success, then, is multiple treatments. In my opinion, this is the most important aspect of controlling Cryptocaryon, even more than the method used. Multiple treatments ensure that Cryptocaryon is killed or removed as it comes off the fish and before it gets a chance to reinfect. Heavily parasitized fish may not survive the stress of infection and treatment. They should be removed as soon as they die to prevent the release of parasites into the aquarium.
Water Changes
Free-swimming parasites are eliminated from an aquarium each time the water is changed, but water changes alone are not completely effective because some parasites will inevitably attach to fish before they can be removed. Once parasites make contact with a fish they penetrate into the skin in five minutes.
Cysts attached to sand, gravel, and other material will also remain in the aquarium. Complete water changes diligently repeated every day for three to four weeks can eliminate the parasite in bare aquariums. One could also move fish to clean aquaria every other day and clean and dry the empty aquaria between use. This should be repeated over a period of at least three weeks.
A simpler, although initially more expensive, alternative is to recirculate aquarium water through an ultraviolet (UV) sterilizer. Free-swimming parasites are killed as they pass through the UV light until the entire population is eliminated. Success depends on using an adequate UV dosage and the correct water flow rate. Gratzek et al. (1983) reported success in treating Ichthyophthirius multifilis (Ich) using a sterilizer rated at 91,900 microwatts/ second/ centimeter2. The advantage of this method is that it effectively eliminates the establishment of future Cryptocaryon infections.
Chemical Treatment
Aquaria can usually be freed of Cryptocaryon by using a combination of water changes and chemical treatment. Multiple application is the key to success. Formalin used at a concentration of 25 parts per million (ppm) every other day for two weeks with a complete water change on alternate days has been successful for us. To treat at this level, use 1 milliliter (ml) formalin in approximately 10 gallons of water. Formalin should be handled carefully. If the aquarium contains invertebrates that could be injured by treatment, the fish should be removed and treated in a conditioned hospital aquarium for the duration of the medication schedule.
Repeated water changes in the original infected aquarium will remove parasites that emerge from cysts. A study recently completed in my laboratory at the University of Georgia found that Cryptocaryon develops inside cysts at different rates, but theronts are always released in the morning, regardless of the day they emerge. Assuming that morning release is a common phenomenon in all ocurrences of Cryptocaryon, one should be able to exploit this for treatment by adding formalin to the water at the time infective parasites are released.
Parasite development can also be speeded up by raising the water temperature as high as permissible without stressing the fish. This will shorten the time that the parasite remains on the fish and ensure that it will be in the water during the period of treatment.
Ionic copper is also commonly used to treat Cryptocaryon. It can be effective if it is properly administered at a constant level of 0.15 to 0.2 ppm. Because of the long incubation period of some tomonts, treatment may need to be continued for as long as 4 weeks to be totally effective. There are a few negative aspects to the use of copper. It cannot be used when invertebrates are present. It has also been claimed to reduce the immune response of fish, making them more susceptible to secondary infections.
Prevention
The best way to eliminate problems with Cryptocaryon is to prevent its introduction into your aquarium in the first place. Steps to avoid outbreaks include buying fish from a reputable supplier; placing fish, coral, and any other live material that could act as a source of contamination into quarantine for two to three weeks before introduction into the aquarium; disinfecting inanimate material such as gravel or sand before adding it to the aquarium; and disinfecting nets.
References
1. Cheung, P.J., R. F. Nigrelli, and G. D. Ruggierri. 1979. Studies on cryptocaryoniasis in marine fish: effect of temperature and salinity on the reproductive cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown. J. Fish Dis. 2:93-97.
2. Colorni, A. 1987. Biology of Cryptocaryon irritans and strategies for its control. Aquaculture 67(1-2):236-237.
3. Colorni, A. 1985. Aspects of the biology of Cryptocaryon irritans, and hyposalinity as a control measure in cultured gilt-head sea bream Sparus aurata. Dis. Aquat. Org. 1:19-22.
4. Colorni, A. and A. Diamant. 1993. Ultrastructural features of Cryptocaryon irritans, a ciliate parasite of marine fish. Euro. J. Protistology. 29:425-434.
5. Gratzek, J. B., J. P. Gilbert, A. L. Lohr, E. B. Shotts, and J. Brown. 1983. Ultraviolet light control of Ichthyophthirius multifilis in a closed system fish culture recirculation system. J. Fish. Dis. 6:145-153.
6. Yoshinaga, T. and H. W. Dickerson. In Press. Laboratory propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans Brown on saltwater adapted black mollies (Poecilia sphenops).
Editor's Note: Low salinity is another approach to controlling Cryptocaryon. Colorni (1985, 1987) reported various methods for treating fish using hyposalinity. One approach was to lower salinity in fish aquariums to 10 parts per thousand (ppt), or a specific gravity of 1.007, for 3 hours every third day to kill tomonts in the aquarium before they could hatch. He also found that tomonts exposed to salinity of 20 to 25 ppt (specific gravity of 1.0145 to 1.018) produced tomites, but their hatching was delayed up to 28 days. Thus reducing salinity to 23 ppt (specific gravity of 1.017) may not be consistently effective. Cysts kept at 15 ppt (specific gravity of 1.011) for 48 hours or more did not produce any live tomites.
We have used low salinity to treat fish with Cryptocaryon here in our lab. We remove half the water in the aquarium and replace it over a 1 hour period with dechlorinated fresh water. The resulting salinity (approximately 15 ppt or specific gravity of 1.011) is maintained for 7 to 10 days. This treatment should not be used for invertebrates or especially sensitive fish, but most marine fish will tolerate it well.

I've been freshwater dipping most of my new fish lately - been working pretty well I think A good step to add to the QT process IMO

Really no need to treat a fish that isn't I'll - but then again, this one is.... the real problem most people have with Hypo is its a 6-8 week process to do it right, not something you can do in a couple weeks

Click here to view or download the file directly.

Click here to view or download the file directly.

Click here to view or download the file directly.

CIR920/FA006: Ichthyophthirius Multifiliis (White Spot) Infections in Fish

Click here to view or download the file directly.

Click here to view or download the file directly.

there's more, but this is way to many lol

Yeah, and a couple of those don't actually deal with crypt.

Most of that research has been out for a while, so nothing new that i could immediately determine.

All my fish except one have gone down to an S.G. of 1.007 and stayed there for 30 days (to account for all lifecycle stages), dropping no more than 0.02 units per day. Then slowly bring it back up, and done.

I did a three-day transfer method for one gobidae that was supposed to be hyposalinity intolerant. That's a pain in the backside, but it worked.

Hippo's are hard enough to keep from getting stress ich.

Buying one that already has ich is like doing your own dentistry...everything may turn out fine, but there is sure to be lots of pain along the way.

If you do a hypo salinity treatment, do it in a hospital tank. The low salinity will kill off all the good critters you want in live rock, as well as inverts and corals. They just can't process it.

You can lower salinity quickly, just raise it very very slowly.

Originally Posted by rgrking

If you do a hypo salinity treatment, do it in a hospital tank. The low salinity will kill off all the good critters you want in live rock, as well as inverts and corals. They just can't process it.

You can lower salinity quickly, just raise it very very slowly.

Good to know. I think I'm going to insist that he hold the fish for at least 2 weeks, if he's not willing to do that than I'm not buying the fish. I'll tell him to hold my cash as store credit and call me when he has healthy hippos.

sounds like a good plan.

Originally Posted by Kimberlee

Good to know. I think I'm going to insist that he hold the fish for at least 2 weeks, if he's not willing to do that than I'm not buying the fish. I'll tell him to hold my cash as store credit and call me when he has healthy hippos.

I agree, great plan!