A new clam for me too!

Thanks Pat

beauties john.
as for mine on the rocks.they never fell. mine aren't balanced like that; the rock is huge. it may be possible that the AI leds aren't sufficient something for the clams, because my PAR readings for my mid level clams was over 350. one dr mac maxi is over a year in the tank and 2 are from december or thereabouts. my params are all well within his recommendations, obviously except for 1.030. i take responsibility for my losses. just trying to determine the variables in their deaths. there was no discussion of cut byssal threads, which was my original theory.
my crocea from PEA is about 5 months in the tank, and they need considerably higher light than maxi's do, according to fatherree. i don't want a specific clam to prove or disprove a general statement, but i'm just commenting.
DR MAC: can it be only starvation due to lighting, if falling or water quality is ruled out? or will inability to adapt to 1.026 cause slow deterioration?
there's no doubt about the dr's concern, quality, and expertise.

Nowhere on their website does it state that clams need to be kept at 1.028-1.030, as he stated in his posts. On his website he states that the smaller clams are harder to keep.

So which is it?

And as far as me not having the right, due to my inexperience, to challenge him. Well your wrong there too. Where does keeping sw fish or clams start? It starts by asking questions. I wont try to keep an animal unless I know its needs and can meet them. Of all of the discussions and info I have read on clams, and all of the people I have spoken to, and all of the disagreements I have seen, their salinity requirements have NEVER been one. All of the different schools of thought on clams dont disagree on salinity. I want to know why he brought up the 1.028-1.030 now, after the fact? It isnt on his website! I have browsed his website many times before this discussion. So if I am a noob help me. Do you keep your clams at 1.028? beacause if you dont, and it dies he states that as a possible cause. To pull that card now, after the fact is irresponsible! It should be clearly posted on his website under their care. I looked again last night and couldnt find it there. I also dont believe him that he tested the water at the lagoon. I think he tested it at his facility then made this claim. I may be dead wrong, and the salinity may be 1.028 in tha lagoon, but him not asking first what the perameters were, and dismissing the collection practice out of the gate, made me distrust him. As soon as someone says "it cant be my fault" I lose trust.

Lastly, PAR is PAR. The clam doesnt care how the light was made, it only cares about the quantity and spectrum. To say they need 250w-400w metal halides tells me, that this is just how you have always done it, and dont know as much as you should about light. Its 2011. Energy is expensive. People are keeping clams and nems successfully with LED's. Know what your product needs to survive! Keep up with the times! If I ask a clam expert what do I need as far as LED's to keep you clams you better have an answer.
If you dont, sorry no sale.

Dont pick on me for being a noob. I may have done more reading in my first year without even having a tank, than you have done in your whole fish keeping career. Dont tell me I dont understand how corals use light because I have never kept one. Sure I have a ton to learn, I cant wait for hands on experience, but I have kept frogs and bred snakes, that at one time people said couldnt be kept or bred. Go catch a ring neck snake, and keep it alive for more than a month. Trust me, when the time comes my clams will be well cared for. But how do I learn from people who shift blame, and state inportant info after an animal dies, and not beforehand on their website? LED's have been out long enough for clam experts to know which ones work.

I have every right to voice my concerns, despite my experience. Right is right, wrong is wrong. If these clams were kept in a correct fashion, and all died, and its no one's fault they should be left in that lagoon. Of course that would lighten someone's pocket. If you disagree with that, you are in this hobby for the wrong reason.

I have purged the demons. This house is clear!

just a little more on s/g
Fatherree, pg 149:salinity in typical reef environments stays around 34-36 ppt...A littlehigher or lower isn't going to hurt anything, but you can't go wrong keeping your salinity in this rnge...In the event you go with a density hydrometer that measures salinity as specific gravity, you should stick to something between 1.025 and 1.027 9measured at 25*C).
Knopp on 148 says essentially the same--35 ppt at 25*, but on pg 151, he says: the optimal range for keeping invertebrates is between 1.020 and 1.024 kg specific gravity .This is also the range suitable for giant clams, despite the large variation of salt concentration found worldwide. The only exception is the Red Sea with a concentration of 40 ppt. [this is 1.03 sg]
if you look at the map, austr and the lower s pacific is 35-36 [1.026-1.027]
Salinity - NASA Science
why these specific islands have a much higher sg than anywhere else is slightly mysterious to me.
did i read anywhere on the thread that PEA does keep the greenhouse at 1.028 or above?

Dam it John I knew I should stole that Dersas from Rich. That clam is looking great.

Originally Posted by houndsbayman

The 3 reefers who have sustained the losses need to take full responsibility for the death of their clams.

Jon, in one of your post, you said you are new to collecting clams, which to me says you never cared for a larger clam. And after having a clam in your tank for over 3 months is definitely a long enough period of time for the retailer not be responsible.
.

John, thanks for chiming in, but the tone of your post leads me to believe you thought i was blaming the seller (Dr mac) and not taking responsibility for the loss. And i absolutely stated that this was my first large clam.

I was just posting honestly about the loss, and looking for some insight on why, when theres a perfectly healthy baby maxima, which was my very first clam at the beginning of this year, still sitting there looking great.

Thats all, just trying to avoid it happening again. I may ask questions, and say "is this a possibility, or this, or this" but i'm definitely not a "point a finger at the lfs every time i kill something" kind of guy.
I'm not that person, and would really prefer not being labeled as one! I feel the creatures are only me and natures responsibility once i tell someone to bag it up for me.... no set length of time for me, once i start the stress process its all in my hands from there!
And btw... Johns (houndsbaymans) post is just another example of how most hobbyist like, and respect the dr. and PEA


NOW, i've seen pages of responses to our little episode of "man drama" here, but not a whole hell of a lot of help with my WHOLE reason for posting the embarrassing fact that i killed this beautiful clam...

If anyone has some constructive insight on possible causes, please help me out.
Remember i mentioned a baby maxima, that sat for a couple months before, and since, in the same location of the big guy (rip)
I know a possible cause is... it just wouldn't take to captivity, as things quite often do.... and i had it alive for several months, so why didn't it heal if there was a problem. and besides, thats another easy out, like pointing a finger at the distributer. I feel if i get it alive, then i should be able to keep it alive, or even nurse things back to health.... I'm shooting for thriving, not just surviving!
So possible causes so far......
inadequate lighting (but theres the baby doing good)??

anybody else with possibilities for me?

I keep our specific gravity at about 1.026-1.027. The salinity in any given area in the which clams or corals and fish originate are that we keep in our tank will vary for several reasons such as rain and runoff, etc. I routinely check sg on every shipment we receive from all suppliers. With our closer relationship with having someone in Tahiti I am on Skype with him almost daily and before the last shipment was packed and shipped I asked him what the sg was just for my information and to be better prepared in for acclimation. A healthy clam or coral would easily be able to handle these slight changes on salinity. I was simply posting my observations as far as salinity and various reasons for why clams might die after a month or more in a customers tank. Salinity is one factor and if other parameters and factors are out of line then these would add up to put that animal over the edge of survival. I was not suggesting that a sg of 1.028 is mandatory nor that if it were different that a clam would inevitably die. I think any invert should be kept at full strength natural saltwater levels. I also stated that on the same day we got in a shipment of Aussie Acans and the sg was even higher than the clams, these were simply observations. I have no reason to make up such observations and they were presented here as observations with the recommendation that he best parameters are those of natural saltwater. One individual here has for what ever reason made it into a crusade to make me into what he now calls a "tool" for posting here. I have never said that anyone may or may not post, but when you get into juvenile name calling and calling me irresponsible then it gets unnecessarily heated and pulls the issue off topic needlessly. Several folks posting in this thread have been to my facility and seen the clams I sell and seen that they are very healthy and beautiful animals and many hundreds of others have kept them successfully. So, hopefully to put this to rest, having a lower salinity alone will not kill a clam or any other animals we keep, it is just one of many potential factors. Every individual animal adapts differently and some can tolerate more change than others. So, if someone is so bent out of shape that I checked the sg and it was higher than they thought it should be then I'm sorry because that is what it was whether you think so or not. I said that i felt that starvation due to inadequate lighting is probably the most common cause for these clam deaths. A larger clam needs more nutrition than a smaller clam. On my site I state that a clam smaller than about 1.5-2 inches is harder to keep, that being a one inch clam for example in my experience is difficult to keep alive vs something like a 4 inch clam. In my experience a clam about 2.5 inches and larger should be able to be kept alive if you have 250-400 watt metal halides, other lighting might work if it is intense enough, but in my experience metal halides are best. I'm not a clam scientist and have not done controlled studies and no one else has either, but that is based on my experience of dealing with clams for the last 10+ years.

I recall a couple years back many vendors at MACNA had some real issues with their corals and it was finally discovered by someone that every vendor using the provided packaged natural saltwater was having issues. It was checked and had a much higher salinity than what many usually keep their salinity, it was about 1.027-1.028 as I recall. Within the 2.5 days of the event many corals bleached and some vendors lost stock. There was a lot of grumbling about it at the time and no one really thought of checking the sg at first. I'll be heading to Tahiti in the next few months and while I am there I will bring an electronic salinity monitor and do a video so we can all see first hand what it is there and I'll check it in different areas because I will be going to several islands there.

Well, I was bummin' that I didn't win a clam so I bought one more. The left one is new.

Just as a side note and me being a chemistry dork, it is possible for 'salinity' to increase as an animal sits in a bag. Since refractometers and hydrometers both test density, then anything that dissolves in the water, whether salt or not, will increase the density and hence the 'salinity' reading. Mucous, ammonia, gametes, algae, bacteria, etc will all increase the salinity reading. Just something to keep in mind. Perhaps the best way is to test chloride levels by using a titration method as this would not be affected by biological impurities.

You are my hero Spiny.

Thanks Bill, coming from someone like yourself who has had plenty of hands - on experience with clams, is a much appreciated compliment.



A very interesting article. Here is the link

CIR1500/FA128: The Role of Salinity in Hard Clam Aquaculture



What are gross signs of salinity stress?

Clams have the ability to close their valves, or shells, in response to adverse salinity conditions, effectively preventing exposure to the surrounding seawater. Clams can keep their valves closed for several days. During this time they respire anaerobically (without oxygen). Clams subject to salinity stress may exhibit: gaping (a longer-term response), retracted mantle edges (especially in response to abnormally high salinities), or swollen, protruding mantle edges (especially in response to low salinities). Gross signs of adverse environmental conditions in juvenile or adult hard clams may go unnoticed because they are infaunal, living buried in the sediment. However, stressed clams may rise to the surface of the sediment or fail to bury. In laboratory studies, we found that clams held at 25, 35, and 40 ppt actively buried. However, clams did not bury in salinities of 5, 10 or 50 ppt. At 15 and 45 ppt, fewer than 25% of clams had buried after 24 hours. These signs are not necessarily specific indications of salinity stress; they may also be associated with infectious or noninfectious diseases, or other adverse environmental conditions, such as high temperature and low dissolved oxygen concentration.

Actual salinity readings from the lagoon at diffferent times/tides, from the actual islands that these clams come from would be awesome data, and a huge benefit to all of us! Thank you! If you grabbed a par meter and got some of that data from clams at different depths, at different times/tides it would most likely help some of us who dont want to have metal halides, know if we can or cant keep a wild clam under other types of lighting. The par number would allow us to absolutely know if we are creating enough light.
I understand you arent a paid scientist, and this isnt your job to do such research, but how great would it be to know what par these clams need, specifically from your lagoon? You could say at that point, regardless of the brand or type of lighting, you need to make x-par. It wont help when a clam dies due to neglect or a poorly maintained or poorly set-up aquarium, but it will help some of us know if we could keep a clam, and rule out lighting as a suspect if we lost one. I am probably in the minority, but if I have $1000 in light dependent inverts in my tank, I will own my own par meter. Good insurance in my opinion.

I am sorry for calling "some guy" a tool. I broke my own rule. "Attack the argument not the person." If it helps, I called a particular action irresponsible, not you personally. I also didnt consider that you would read my other thread. I sometimes forget that everything on this site is linked.

You know all the analyzing on chemicals and salinity and every other factor involve in keeping clams may be good practices but I remember a extremely interesting pic that Chris put up of a pretty large clam can't remember which species it was but believe was in Vietnam maybe and was completely out of the water during low tide the clam looked like it was there for a very long time and was surviving very well
I would think no water equals no salinity ,just what the clam can keep during tidel
change, they are more resilient then people give them credit.

Althought salinity Is important it may not be as critical unless your not monitoring it and water levels causing large swings.

Good point bill.
Don't know too many people in this hobby that can afford to own their own PAR meter, but yes, it would definitely be a big plus. That is why joining a club is a good idea, if the club can purchase a Par meter and all the members get to use it.

Originally Posted by Barbara

OK.........so I think we can all agree that raising and caring for clams in this hobby is a challenge...with many differing opinions

can we NOW get back on track with this thread 'cause I think we've been hijacked!

Congrats on the new clam, Saltcreep!!