Salt mixes and your thoughts

I use Seachem Marine Salt and like it so far.

Logansdaddy, how do you get that lucky to get your girlfriend to do the wc for you??? Where do I sign up for that?LOL

Originally Posted by skinz78

I use Seachem Marine Salt and like it so far.

Logansdaddy, how do you get that lucky to get your girlfriend to do the wc for you??? Where do I sign up for that?LOL

WOW!! You lucky Dog you....

Originally Posted by Barbara

I always wondered why one was so much more than the other.....I mean salt is salt right? is it just because of the additives? if so, can't WE just add them ourselves? and why would one cloud the water more than another?

There are different grades (purity levels) of the chemicals used to make salt mix's. The clouding comes from either anti-caking agents or precipitation. Precipitation can happen if the water your adding the salt to is too cold or you add too much salt at once.

Chemical grade definitions from highest to lowest purity...
1. A.C.S.

A chemical grade of highest purity and meets or exceeds purity standards set by American Chemical Society (ACS).

2. Reagent

High purity generally equal to A.C.S. grade and suitable for use in many laboratory and analytical applications.

3. U.S.P.

A chemical grade of sufficient purity to meet or exceed requirements of the U.S. Pharmacopeia (USP); acceptable for food, drug, or medicinal use; may be used for most laboratory purposes.

4. N.F.

A grade of sufficient purity to meet or exceed requirements of the National Formulary (NF).

5. Lab

A chemical grade of relatively high quality with exact levels of impurities unknown; usually pure enough for educational applications. Not pure enough to be offered for food, drug, or medicinal use of any kind.

6. Purified

Also called pure or practical grade, and indicates good quality chemicals meeting no official standard; can be used in most cases for educational applications. Not pure enough to be offered for food, drug, or medicinal use of any kind.

7. Technical

Good quality chemical grade used for commercial and industrial purposes. Not pure enough to be offered for food, drug, or medicinal use of any kind.

is it just because of the additives? if so, can't WE just add them ourselves? and why would one cloud the water more than another?[/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by logans_daddy

IMO? No.

For the most part yes.

yes you can. there are at least 70 trace elements found in NSW. are they important? i dont know but i personally think they are. can you locate, dose, and test for them to make sure they are added in the proper ratios? i dont know, but i cant.

Most of the trace elements can be found as impurities in the other major salt compounds use to make these mixs.

This is the basis for all the salt mix's out there today and was patented by Frank Millero back in the late 60's (i think)

23.98 g sodium chloride
5.029 g magnesium chloride
4.01 g sodium sulfate
1.14 g calcium chloride
0.699 g potassium chloride
0.172 g sodium bicarbonate
0.100 g potassium bromide
0.0254 g boric acid
0.0143 g strontium chloride
0.0029 g sodium fluoride
Water to 1 kg total weight.

The end purity of the mix will of course depend on the purity level of the above salts. Its pretty easy to tell that non of the salt mix's out there are using the highest purity ingredients just by searching all the above salts and the different purity levels they come in and then pricing them at the quantities needed. (Ive done it)

again, i dont know but in my opinion this is usually directly related to the quality of the salt. the cheaper salts ive used usually leave residue and the higher ends salts do not but i have not used all saltmix brands.

Weve used both TM and TM pro in the past and ive gotten precipitation from them just like i get with IO if the water is cold or i add all the salt at once. With IO if the water is warm and i add half the salt i need one day and the rest the next i dont get precipitation.

everyone will have different opinions on this subject and i will be no exception. what i will say is this topic is one i have read a lot about and given a lot of thought to and shared my ideas for the last several years with local members. i dont think there is anything wrong with 2/3 part dosing. however, for me, im not comfortable with putting something in my tank that is manufactured for the use of being put on your sidewalks.

Prestone driveway heat is repackaged Peladow 94% pure calcium chloride (the other 6% is mostly water and MG chloride) Peladow wasnt designed specifically to be put on your drive way. It has a whole bunch of different uses one of which happens to be melting ice. Pealdow is the exact same thing as Kent turbo calcium and thats marketed to the reef hobby as reef safe.

Randy ammended his original article with the fact that he was contacted by Prestone(or one of the other manufactures) stating that they do not recommend their product to be used in reef tanks.

Yes but your not saying why they said that. Dow chemical contacted him about a year after he wrote the 2 part article and told him that they are no longer producing borate so the are no longer refining their calcium chloride to remove the small amount of borate in it. Randy also said that even with the borate left in the produce the levels are small and he dosent see any problem with using it.

for me buying 50lb sacks of chemicals with quality control standards not meant for this hobby along with the labor of measuring and dosing is not worth it. also, unless you dose daily or at least every couple of days your tank will not be as stable as it can be.

I would have to argue that almost every additive out there for this hobby has low QC standards. Companys arent even required to put ingredient lists on the stuff they sell and they can make all the claims they want about what the product can do (ecoaqualizer anyone )

something else ive always found interesting are the number of RC TOTM that have since crashed because of unknown causes and all the talk about "old tank syndrome".

I do only waterchanges in a 265g SPS dominated tank with no dosing via daily 5-10g waterchanges with a target of 50-100% monthly turnover based on testing. I do so with the following thoughts in mind.
1)Regardless of whatever substance that this or that expert feels builds up over time that contributes to old tank syndrome i feel that dilution will prevent this from happening.
2)Waterchanges without dosing or minimum dosing will keep ionic balance among the different elements in the water. How important is this? Again, i dont know. It depends on which expert you want to believe. Personally? I think it can be a significant "unobserved" factor in old tank syndrome.
3)Small frequent waterchanges keeps my tank SUPER stable, keeps my major paramters at the right levels and stable, keeps my trace elements that i dont dose where they should be, and keeps my NO3 and PO4 and 0ppm with no reactors or other methods other than a fuge.

I thought you were doing the balling method?

Very informative.

In a nutshell, would I be better off adding my salt a little at a time to possibly prevent the build up I get in my mixing barrels. I've always dumped a ton in at first and let it sit overnight then made slight adjustments the next day.

Originally Posted by logans_daddy

It came at a cost my friend! Trust me! The very least of which was that i had to give her half the tank and let her smelly, er i mean awesome, dog move in!

That's a small price to pay for only having to do 1/2 the "work" on that monster sized tank.

Originally Posted by tcwayne

Very informative.

In a nutshell, would I be better off adding my salt a little at a time to possibly prevent the build up I get in my mixing barrels. I've always dumped a ton in at first and let it sit overnight then made slight adjustments the next day.

IMO yes. Im guessing you could wait a few hours between adding small amounts of salt. It just takes a little time for all the chemical compounds to come unattached in the water. Just because the crystals are dissolved in the water dosent mean that all the compounds went into solution yet. These salts in the mix are all linked to something else. For example you add calcium chloride to water and in time its not calcium chloride any more. The calcium and the chloride come apart. Its the same with all the other salt compounds in the mix and some take longer to go into solution then others.

Originally Posted by ponies999

Thats something i wouldnt know much about but i would imagine its a trend that plagues lower cost additives more than premium. I would also imagine that a lot of European reefers would not think that the QC standards are low for their top shelf brands like TM.

Its funny that your calling TM a top shelf brand. Im not knocking it, ive used it and liked it. But there are a lot of European reefers that consider TM their IO. TM is expensive here because its imported. In EU. its the cheap salt.

Originally Posted by chris&barb

Ive used a bunch of different salt mix's over the years and ive never noticed any difference between them. Sure, some of them have higher Ca or Mg but those also have a much higher price tag. Calcium chloride and magnesium chloride cheap and easy to find so i can justify paying $10 to $30 more a bucket for these higher end salts when i can raise the Ca and Mg levels of cheaper salts up to the others levels for about $1 a bucket.

I've said my opinion before on the DRC site, but here it is again. If a salt manufacturer can't get the two elements right that hobbyist actually test for what else have they screwed up. How much variance is there in iodine in the mixes?(last I heard an iodine test kit cost around $200 and was still horribly inaccurate for our purposes, Over dose could kill your tank, less than required and your corals will likely completely stop growing) How about copper?(oh yes the horrible horrible element, but did you know it could be bio-limiting to our corals if completely not present, it is required from some chemical reactions inside of corals) How about the other 50+ major, minor, and trace elements? I’m no chemist, but would like to know a real chemist put some serious thought into the product and large amounts of testing was performed before a batch of salt was sent my way.

There are way too many things for hobbyist to test for and if a salt manufacturer can't even get the ones right that they know(threw thousands of customer support tickets) that we test for, what else are they screwing up? Ca, and Mg may be cheap to add, but do you test all the other elements in the salt mix you are adding to your tank and adjust all of them?

My two cents. I've used both Brightwell and Tropic Marin Pro.(well I've used probably 10+ brands at one point or the other in different situations in the past, but these are the two I've been using recently) Tropic Marin Pro is my current choice unless I'm doing a Fish Only QT or something that doesn't really have to be dead on then I might use Brightwell or maybe InstantOcean's Reef Crystals.(would only use IO RC if I wasn't using live rock or attempting to keep the system running for more then a month)

We do so much for our reef tanks, this isn't an area to go cheap on. Chemistry is fundamental. It doesn't matter if your clown fish are fighting or your Euphyllia coral is stinging other corals when your chemistry is completely whack because you cheaped out on salt.

reef crystals

Originally Posted by Gordonious

I've said my opinion before on the DRC site, but here it is again. If a salt manufacturer can't get the two elements right that hobbyist actually test for what else have they screwed up. How much variance is there in iodine in the mixes?(last I heard an iodine test kit cost around $200 and was still horribly inaccurate for our purposes, Over dose could kill your tank, less than required and your corals will likely completely stop growing) How about copper?(oh yes the horrible horrible element, but did you know it could be bio-limiting to our corals if completely not present, it is required from some chemical reactions inside of corals) How about the other 50+ major, minor, and trace elements? I’m no chemist, but would like to know a real chemist put some serious thought into the product and large amounts of testing was performed before a batch of salt was sent my way.

There are way too many things for hobbyist to test for and if a salt manufacturer can't even get the ones right that they know(threw thousands of customer support tickets) that we test for, what else are they screwing up? Ca, and Mg may be cheap to add, but do you test all the other elements in the salt mix you are adding to your tank and adjust all of them?

My two cents. I've used both Brightwell and Tropic Marin Pro.(well I've used probably 10+ brands at one point or the other in different situations in the past, but these are the two I've been using recently) Tropic Marin Pro is my current choice unless I'm doing a Fish Only QT or something that doesn't really have to be dead on then I might use Brightwell or maybe InstantOcean's Reef Crystals.(would only use IO RC if I wasn't using live rock or attempting to keep the system running for more then a month)

We do so much for our reef tanks, this isn't an area to go cheap on. Chemistry is fundamental. It doesn't matter if your clown fish are fighting or your Euphyllia coral is stinging other corals when your chemistry is completely whack because you cheaped out on salt.

I would like to know where are all the tests that show that any salt is better then the next?

I think ive seen 2 or 3 different tests done on salt mix's (not even thinking of the S-15 report)and they were all different.

So are you of the assumption that if its more expensive its better? How about maybe one's that are less expensive because they sell a whole bunch more?

Not at all of the opinion that you will get more because you spend more. Just happens to be in my local stores TMP is the most expensive and in my opinion the best. Also happens to be that the least expensive in my local stores in the worst salt I have ever used.

I haven't seen a definitive test stating one salt brand is better than another. Much of what I have said had come from my opinion, my experience, and from the opinions of people I respect.

Shawn mentioned to people above that were speakers and/or authors that were not a huge fan of Tropic Marin Pro. Neither are experts in chemistry or people I would turn to for advice on salt. One of them is extremely biased as for the fact that he was a rep for another company selling salt for many years. His sales pitch was that it was the only salt made for use in RO water. Well their salt was made naturally from water in the Red Sea. So what did they change about their salt made from the Sea if they were selling what was naturally in the sea?(the fact that it was natural and the fact that it was made for RO water … what?) He now sells light bulbs which are made to be used in the fixtures he sells and says you should by X brand of bulbs to use in X fixtures. Sounds like you should buy Japanese parts to put in Japanese cars.
Are the other bulbs made to be used specifically in another fixture? Are the other brands of salt made to be used in cleaning toilets and not in reef tanks with RO water? It's a chain of logic most reefers who listened to him didn't really go examine. He’s a fast talking sales man.

Ok, I got side tracked. My main point was that we don't test for every element and buffer it, so most of the time we have to trust in the company we are buying salt from that they got all the major, minor, and trace elements at the right levels.(using iodine and copper as examples of things we don't typically test for, but are important.)

If a manufacturer screws up on the amount of Calcium and Magnessium, knowing these are the two things hobbyist hold most important and the two things we can, and do, test for then how can we trust them to get the rest right?

As Shawn stated if you don't believe it's important they get all the other things right then you can use what you want. If you ever even consider dosing or testing for anything else such as iodine or Strontium or anything else, why use a cheap salt? If you actually got things where you wanted by testing and dosing you need to test every batch of salt you get as well. For that matter why not further look into making your own salt? If none of the little things matter and if the salt manufacturers use low grade materials anyways….

This is just my opinion. I am not a chemist either, by any means. I think it is worth it to spend the extra money for a company I trust. I did not simply pick the salt based on price, rather I based my opinion on the reputation of the company that makes it, my personal experience, and the opinions of people I respect.
There are many more critical things for new hobbyist to address first. If someone is striving to grow Discoma mushrooms and keep clown fish alive and they do not yet own a skimmer or an RO unit, then it may not be worth it yet to spend the money on a good salt yet.(the money would be best spent elsewhere) I believe this is analogous to using Ozone. While there is no question that using a little bit of ozone will help clarify the water helping create a more beautiful tank, if Nitrates are high and hair algae dominates the tank, there are a lot more pressing issues to resolve first.

I might as well link to one of the salt tests since this thread is going that way

Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study, Part I | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

Feature Article: Inland Reef Aquaria Salt Study Part II | Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine

As you can see from those links all the salts tested are all over the place even TM who your suggesting gets it right.

Im attaching a PDF of another test that shows the same thing.

My point is that i dont think any of the salt makers are getting it right and that the bucket you buy this week is going to be different in some way from the one you get next regardless of what brand it is

Originally Posted by logans_daddy

(i believe seachem's new saltmix has uniform particle size but im unaware of anyone else).

Brightwell's NeoMarine is uniform particle size, and there are others as well, however Chris himself told me he has recently been convinced it is possible after a very long trip that the salt could still settle or whatever and benifit from some mixing before use.(we are talking about mixing the dry salt mix of the entire new bucket of salt before adding any of it to water, for those who might be confused)

Haven't read all of the information linked to, but I had heard a good bit about the biases involved in study and from what I did read just flipping through.. It seemed like there was more questions found then answers. The biggest issue with Tropic Marine Pro discovered were with the amounts of copper found which I don't think is a disaster as it is far below the levels that would harm any animal in the tank in my opinion.(I also now use a good bit of activated carbon which would absorb copper from the water column. I don't use it for this purpose specifically, but mentioning as it would help negate me caring about this in my system)

Now back to working on installing my 4' tall skimmer.

OK, read through the first page of the article posted on Advanced Aquarist. I am not at all concerned with the 9ppb listed from Tropic Marine Pro and the 3-4ppb difference between the tests on TMP and the other companies, wouldn't sway me one way or another.(we are talking parts per Billion here, not the parts per Million we typically test for) This is listed as the major concern the test had with the product.
In addition the PDF file you posted lists Tropic Marin Pro as having less copper then the average, so the two articles fight each other on that point.
I realize you, Chris, weren’t trying to say that TMP was any less than any other salt, but thought I should look at those articles again since it had been several years since I read them last. If those tests show no definitive strength or weakness to any of the salts that make them stand out as the best salt then I go back to my experience and the reputable opinions I’ve heard from others.
Again if you have cyano problems or are losing animals then the brand of salt may not matter as much to you, but I like and use TMP. If it weren’t available at all because they stopped making it I would use Brightwell. I’ve been out of work for many months and still use TMP. All above my opinions as the original poster asked for opinions.

Originally Posted by logans_daddy

I agree with Jon(gordo) and he knows that i have had the very same opinion for a very long time. It does not bother me in the least that some hobbyist might enjoy a laugh at my expense thinking im throwing my money down the drain using TM salt with frequent waterchanges. Im well aware of the fact that there are very successful systems using 2/3 part and cheaper salts. Thats great for them and i hope they continue to enjoy a high level of success.

I considerable myself to be very well read as it pertains to this hobby at many levels(scholarly journal down to forum chit chat). I have a considerable amount of experience and have enjoyed quite a bit of success in this hobby. Just as important in my opinion, i have experienced a fair amount of failure as well. Ive learned from both and my systems and my husbandry practices have evolved. In my opinion trace minerals are important and i feel that i would be setting myself up for failure if they did not factor into my husbandry.



Perhaps the part i agree with the most. Can all of these things that we discuss and debate regarding saltmixes be quantitized? Absolutely. Has it been done yet? Not even close! We make the best decisions we can with the information and experiencs we have. Jon could not have said it any better and i wont try. Everyone is free to pursue this hobby from so many directions using a myriad of tools and methods. Its what makes it so great in my opinion.



I think you missed my point for mentioning this but no worries!



I thought the same at one point and will agree that there is some "evidence" to support that conclusion. There is also a lot of controversy that hovers around most of the analysis including the one you mentioned earlier that was actually sponsored by one of the manufactures being tested.

Personally, TM pro has been VERY consistent for me. Anyone that has been around long enough will likely remember when i switched to TM pro several years ago and why. They might also remember as well that i bought a paint/concrete mixer that i use with my drill to mix the saltmix thoroughly once i get it home the first time. One not well known fact is that the particles in your saltmix are not the same size(i believe seachem's new saltmix has uniform particle size but im unaware of anyone else). If you want to know how this can effect us as hobbyist fill a 5 gallon bucket with a "random distribution" of 10 different sized marbles. Put it in the trunk of your car and drive it around for a week. Open the bucket up and you will observe that your "random distribution" is no longer random. The same thing happens to our salt. Ive had buckets where the effect was clearly visible by the naked eye.

Anyways, considering the fact that i use a paintmixer on a cordless drill and a hobby level test kit to verify chemistry i have been extremely happy with the consistency of TM saltmix. I have yet to experience a bad batch or even a bucket that was off by any amount significant enough to even ring a bell.

The best point that Jon makes, and one i have been making for years, is a fundamental one. If the saltmix you use, in your own opinions, does not put appropriate amounts of Ca or Mg in the mix crucial for success in keeping corals and other inverts why would you buy their salt? How long would a company stay around if the manufactured an LED fixture with 1/2 watt LED's that produced around 100 PAR at the surface of your tank? Id like to think not very long. Id also like to think that no one would recommend buying additional LEDs from another source to increase the "quality" of the fixture. Might not be the best analogy but i hope it makes my point.

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+1

Anyone else would like to share what Salt mix your using and your thoughts on it?

im gonna switch to tropic marine, Whats the difference between TM and TMP? is it ok to just use TM on a reef tank?